Okay, last comment. "But I’d like for us to stop pretending that these stories are some kind of rebellious middle finger and just… say you want to read the books." Exactly this.
Yeah, you can have problematic faves (IMO we all do), but what you don't get to do is get offended when people think it is in fact problematic. I think romance readers, of all people, should get that. Please don't gaslight me so that you can feel better about your reading choices.
I’m going to dive into this further when I log off work today, but I agree with you. The rising popularity of this fanfic and other subgenres of romance that center fascist and anti-feminist themes is VERY ALARMING. It echoes the growing eminence of ideals like the Trad Wife Movement and I am absolutely horrified by all of it.
This essay is even better than I thought it would be. I can't even add anything, except to renew my plea that someone please warn me when I'm reading a fic adaptation so I don't accidently read Reylo for the 8th time, or Dramione, or TS/TK. or or or.
Loved this, Tori. And it absolutely confirms that no one should think that reading romance alone is a feminist or progressive act. (Which… I have heard before?) All the Dramione stuff feels uncomfortably similar to the crap we’re seeing that is attempting to normalize fascism, like Glamour covering those “glamorous” young people’s far-right parties and shit. JKR is an awful human being and if you say you care about trans people’s rights, I don’t think any amount of moral contortion makes it ok to consume her IP in any form. If you just don’t give a shit about trans people, you do you—but be honest about it.
Thank you, friend!!! The normalization of fascism and the alt right has been so horrifying to see. Also, 100% agree that romance is not by itself a feminist act!
Also what is the venn diagram overlap with people defending this, and people who spent the last two weeks saying "OK, first off, he's a NICE enslaver..." As Sarah says, just say you want to read these books.
Ok I'm going to be honest, I read Manacled and loved it and plan to read most of these books. But I think the whole Dramione thing is just one of many people's first times experiencing or shipping "he's mean to everyone but her" kind of relationship. Which is not a great relationship IRL but will always be popular in romance books and media where characters are allowed to make bad decisions we wouldn't want to make in our own lives.
Also just want to make it clear that I am so heartbroken by JKR. As a kid, I really looked up to her. A woman who built an empire. And now (or maybe forever and I didn't realize) she has turned into such a loser.
For sure! I think a lot of people are coming into fandom for the first time now too and this is their first interaction with it. I was kind of surprised about how many people I spoke to that have never read or watched the movies!
If anyone over the age of 14 is actually having their first bully/victim ship because of Dramione I will be absolutely shocked. Villain redemption is so pervasive, even outside of romance fiction.
I also am quite tempted to read The Irresistible Urge to Fall For Your Enemy, not because I knew it was Dramione fanfiction (this is someone who has read fanfiction in the past). Because it appealed to me, what is edging me is whether or not the author has any choice in the matter. If the author is actively choosing to market these novels for people who enjoy this ship for all the mistakes, when in actuality it is not coded like them or anything.
That is out of line, because it is lying to the audience. People who would support you. Who may enjoy but not the person behind it.
YES YES YES!!! I never got the appeal of these fanfics, like why are soooo many readers SO horny to redeem a fictional n@zi?! What is that telling us?! Please let these characters die and JKR fade back into obscurity.
I just got to the quote about Sound of Music, and had literally had the thought two minutes before, "So is this basically the fanfic of what would happen if Liesl hadn't told Rolf to get fucked?" 😬😬😬
Thank you for this, I’ve been feeling conflicted about Dramoine for ages and this clarified some points that were percolating. I think it’s important to draw a line within the romance/dark romance/fantasy romance genres, which is how dark is too dark? For me, the MMC literally holding or acting on beliefs that the FMC shouldn’t exist or should be exterminated is way too dark. That’s irredeemable. I don’t need any June/Commander ship fics personally
Fanfiction fandom is the ultimate conversation of how far can art and artist be separated? And I leave the question hanging out there because (truly) I couldn't say. There are just as many creators that use the vaguest definition of a property to launch an entirely new take on characters and there are some players in fandom that MILITANTLY adhere to canon convention. At what point does transformative work truly transform?
Also, I am one of the Olds who hasn't consumed HP in any form, so I didn't know about the whole Draco being into blood purity thing, and that is major YIKES.
Sooo many excellent points articulated here! Something that has always bothered me about fan fiction is that instead of writing characters and worlds inspired by or influenced by existing characters and stories, the entire concept is based on the bizarre self-acceptance of a mantle to continue someone else’s story. As in, “If this author was deceased, THIS is how these characters’ stories would unfold next”. If you want to write about spoiled rich kid right-wing bully falling for the more liberal nerdy girl, WHY must that be cemented in someone else’s existing characters and setting, especially given that someone else is a rich right-wing bully herself?
And ditto to your comments about how squirmy it feels to see publishers blatantly feed off a fandom but claim these stories aren’t associated with said fandom’s originator. Kind of makes me want to scream.
SO squirmy. I just think they know exactly what they’re doing and want to pretend they aren’t doing The Thing. I believe they pulled those marketing posters off of Edelweiss but the choice to make them alone is…a choice!
I am going to circle back with more thoughts on this, the best substack piece I have ever read, but I want to add to the footnote on Alexis Hall that I think Casey McQ DID remove harry potter reference in Red, White, and Royal Blue due to controversy three whole years ago! 2022! Now Casey is nonbinary so that adds a layer but this interests me because we were editing RWRB two years before the deals for these dramione books. Anyway, thank you for this piece, I am sending to my friends!!!
Thank you so much for reading!!! I’m pretty sure Casey changed the HP references to Percy Jackson if I remember correctly! RWRB was another one I remember getting a bit of backlash but Casey was quick to correct it which I was glad to see!
Yes, I believe that was the resolution! What I was trying to say here was that three whole years ago, a majorly popular book responded to HP-related backlash with edits and contrasting that to NOW seeing the release of all these books. I know Casey has a different POV because of their own identity, I was just pondering how we got from there to here (and what that means, which is obviously the better-articulated point of your piece).
Okay, last comment. "But I’d like for us to stop pretending that these stories are some kind of rebellious middle finger and just… say you want to read the books." Exactly this.
I wouldn’t be quite as mad, I don’t think, if we weren’t jumping through hoops to make this fine and getting mad when there’s pushback.
Yeah, you can have problematic faves (IMO we all do), but what you don't get to do is get offended when people think it is in fact problematic. I think romance readers, of all people, should get that. Please don't gaslight me so that you can feel better about your reading choices.
That’s *exactly* what set me off.
I’m going to dive into this further when I log off work today, but I agree with you. The rising popularity of this fanfic and other subgenres of romance that center fascist and anti-feminist themes is VERY ALARMING. It echoes the growing eminence of ideals like the Trad Wife Movement and I am absolutely horrified by all of it.
Oof. The adjacency to anti-feminism and trad wife rhetoric I’m seeing grow in the small town romance community has been CONCERNING.
My books definitely aren’t that - even my historicals… as a lifelong feminist I just can’t countenance it.
*insert "stop booing me I'm right" dot gif*
Substack, plz get on the gif train. Add some pizazz.
This essay is even better than I thought it would be. I can't even add anything, except to renew my plea that someone please warn me when I'm reading a fic adaptation so I don't accidently read Reylo for the 8th time, or Dramione, or TS/TK. or or or.
Thank you, my friend!!! Reylo wasn’t something I enjoyed either!
Loved this, Tori. And it absolutely confirms that no one should think that reading romance alone is a feminist or progressive act. (Which… I have heard before?) All the Dramione stuff feels uncomfortably similar to the crap we’re seeing that is attempting to normalize fascism, like Glamour covering those “glamorous” young people’s far-right parties and shit. JKR is an awful human being and if you say you care about trans people’s rights, I don’t think any amount of moral contortion makes it ok to consume her IP in any form. If you just don’t give a shit about trans people, you do you—but be honest about it.
Thank you, friend!!! The normalization of fascism and the alt right has been so horrifying to see. Also, 100% agree that romance is not by itself a feminist act!
Also what is the venn diagram overlap with people defending this, and people who spent the last two weeks saying "OK, first off, he's a NICE enslaver..." As Sarah says, just say you want to read these books.
It is very funny you say that because I think the diagram is just a circle hahaha
Ok I'm going to be honest, I read Manacled and loved it and plan to read most of these books. But I think the whole Dramione thing is just one of many people's first times experiencing or shipping "he's mean to everyone but her" kind of relationship. Which is not a great relationship IRL but will always be popular in romance books and media where characters are allowed to make bad decisions we wouldn't want to make in our own lives.
Also just want to make it clear that I am so heartbroken by JKR. As a kid, I really looked up to her. A woman who built an empire. And now (or maybe forever and I didn't realize) she has turned into such a loser.
For sure! I think a lot of people are coming into fandom for the first time now too and this is their first interaction with it. I was kind of surprised about how many people I spoke to that have never read or watched the movies!
If anyone over the age of 14 is actually having their first bully/victim ship because of Dramione I will be absolutely shocked. Villain redemption is so pervasive, even outside of romance fiction.
Agreed! But I was thinking of people who watched Harry Potter before being 14
Do you mean they were shipping Dramione as kids while watching/reading HP for the first time, and that’s how it’s their first?
Yes, exactly! :) I'm sorry I wasn't clear before.
I totally misunderstood! I was thinking kids who read/watched then coming to the ship as older teens/adults.
I also am quite tempted to read The Irresistible Urge to Fall For Your Enemy, not because I knew it was Dramione fanfiction (this is someone who has read fanfiction in the past). Because it appealed to me, what is edging me is whether or not the author has any choice in the matter. If the author is actively choosing to market these novels for people who enjoy this ship for all the mistakes, when in actuality it is not coded like them or anything.
That is out of line, because it is lying to the audience. People who would support you. Who may enjoy but not the person behind it.
YES YES YES!!! I never got the appeal of these fanfics, like why are soooo many readers SO horny to redeem a fictional n@zi?! What is that telling us?! Please let these characters die and JKR fade back into obscurity.
Like…of all the ships we’re choosing…it’s the fascist and the woman he torments?? I don’t get it. I really don’t.
I just got to the quote about Sound of Music, and had literally had the thought two minutes before, "So is this basically the fanfic of what would happen if Liesl hadn't told Rolf to get fucked?" 😬😬😬
When I got that message in my DMs I stared at the wall for forever like “ROLF??” Lmaooo
Thank you for this, I’ve been feeling conflicted about Dramoine for ages and this clarified some points that were percolating. I think it’s important to draw a line within the romance/dark romance/fantasy romance genres, which is how dark is too dark? For me, the MMC literally holding or acting on beliefs that the FMC shouldn’t exist or should be exterminated is way too dark. That’s irredeemable. I don’t need any June/Commander ship fics personally
It does feel very June/Commander and I just can’t get behind it! I probably never would have but certainly not in this political arena we’re in now!
Right?? Like *maybe* if we weren’t living through a hostile fascist takeover actively but certainly not now!
"Separate the fasc from the fascist." 💀 Literally everything you wrote here is exactly why I find this all to be highly problematic.
Standing ovation, Tori.
Thank you, friend!!!
Fanfiction fandom is the ultimate conversation of how far can art and artist be separated? And I leave the question hanging out there because (truly) I couldn't say. There are just as many creators that use the vaguest definition of a property to launch an entirely new take on characters and there are some players in fandom that MILITANTLY adhere to canon convention. At what point does transformative work truly transform?
Great piece!
Thank you so much!!!! It’ll be interesting to see how much Alchemised in particular gets transformed!
Also, I am one of the Olds who hasn't consumed HP in any form, so I didn't know about the whole Draco being into blood purity thing, and that is major YIKES.
OH YEAH. Lots of slurs about Hermione’s non-pure blood status. 😵💫
So much yikes.
Sooo many excellent points articulated here! Something that has always bothered me about fan fiction is that instead of writing characters and worlds inspired by or influenced by existing characters and stories, the entire concept is based on the bizarre self-acceptance of a mantle to continue someone else’s story. As in, “If this author was deceased, THIS is how these characters’ stories would unfold next”. If you want to write about spoiled rich kid right-wing bully falling for the more liberal nerdy girl, WHY must that be cemented in someone else’s existing characters and setting, especially given that someone else is a rich right-wing bully herself?
And ditto to your comments about how squirmy it feels to see publishers blatantly feed off a fandom but claim these stories aren’t associated with said fandom’s originator. Kind of makes me want to scream.
SO squirmy. I just think they know exactly what they’re doing and want to pretend they aren’t doing The Thing. I believe they pulled those marketing posters off of Edelweiss but the choice to make them alone is…a choice!
Thank you for reading!!!
I am going to circle back with more thoughts on this, the best substack piece I have ever read, but I want to add to the footnote on Alexis Hall that I think Casey McQ DID remove harry potter reference in Red, White, and Royal Blue due to controversy three whole years ago! 2022! Now Casey is nonbinary so that adds a layer but this interests me because we were editing RWRB two years before the deals for these dramione books. Anyway, thank you for this piece, I am sending to my friends!!!
Thank you so much for reading!!! I’m pretty sure Casey changed the HP references to Percy Jackson if I remember correctly! RWRB was another one I remember getting a bit of backlash but Casey was quick to correct it which I was glad to see!
Yes, I believe that was the resolution! What I was trying to say here was that three whole years ago, a majorly popular book responded to HP-related backlash with edits and contrasting that to NOW seeing the release of all these books. I know Casey has a different POV because of their own identity, I was just pondering how we got from there to here (and what that means, which is obviously the better-articulated point of your piece).